CRISIS Interview with Mikhail Gorbachev

Mikhail Gorbachev was the final president of the Soviet Union, serving from 1985 to 1991. His policies of perestroika (restructuring) and glasnost (openness) led to the end of communism in the USSR and the birth of a new, democratic Russia.

Currently, he heads the Gorbachev Foundation, an international think tank. He sat down with Deal W. Hudson in his office in Moscow, underneath a large portrait of his late, beloved wife, Raisa.

Deal W. Hudson: The United States and its allies are now at war with terrorism. How do you see that proceeding?

Mikhail Gorbachev: Even as we're witnessing a new euphoria from the victory over the Taliban, we have to state firmly that resorting to bombing of entire countries and peoples each time we battle with terrorism is absolutely unacceptable. We need to decide this on a case-by-case basis. There are economic, financial, and other means to go about combating this threat.

Do you think, in some cases, the same objective can be achieved through nonviolent methods?

Yes, of course. I was talking to Margaret Thatcher when she called for NATO strikes against Serbs in Bosnia. I asked her why she didn't use this method of bombing in Belfast with all the problems with the IRA in northern Ireland-even when she narrowly escaped the bombing in a hotel. Why was it all right to bomb the Serbs? I saw her on the TV screen, and she was saying, "Bomb them, bomb them." My answer was very harsh: I told her not to resort to violence.

What would you suggest?

Recently, I did an interview with a German newspaper in which I pointed out that there are many other nonmilitary options available. I was one of the first to suggest going the financial route. My proposal was to take ten banks that offer support to terrorist groups and revoke their licenses. You can be sure the next day 120 percent of the other banks would change their practices. When the newspaper ran the article, the headline said, "Gorbachev wants to revoke licenses of German banks." [Laughter]

I understand you met with former President Clinton recently?

Yes, I met President Clinton in Madrid. My relationship with President Clinton was quite strained, if not downright tense. Of course, it was not because of Monica Lewinsky. I was highly critical of his foreign policy. He is guilty for the fact that the U.S. has wasted those ten years following the end of the Cold War.

What should he have done? How did he waste those years? Do you mean against terrorism?

I think he missed out on opportunities to develop a new world order. I discussed this at length with the president of the United States, George W. Bush. I think [the United States and Russia] should have worked more on the NATO issues and the issues of European security. Following the end of the Cold War, little had been done. I think Mr. Clinton, as a freshman in foreign politics, was spending too much time on the little details, and as a result, none of us was ready for the challenges of globalization.

So [Mr. Clinton and I] were the two principal speakers at the Madrid conference, and Mr. Clinton delivered a very interesting address. Put bluntly, he was rather self-critical. I asked, "Why bother with self-criticism? You're interested in the poverty issue, and something must be done about it." He said, "It wasn't really me who caused the growth of poverty, but I didn't do very much to address it."

Are you encouraged by the strong relationship between President Bush and President Putin?

Very much so. It would be good if no one paid attention to those who criticize Bush in the United States or those who tend to criticize Mr. Putin in Russia. Mr. Putin has great support among the ordinary people, but some scholars and intellectuals who cater to the party interests of ruling elites try to criticize him. We shouldn't only talk about the need for new relations and cooperation, but we should also work to create the mechanism for these new relations.

What kind of mechanisms do you have in mind?

Take NATO, for example. Russia, together with NATO, is addressing some of the really critical problems of today, and Russia's contribution to this process is much bigger than that of all those aspiring states who want to join NATO. And it's going to be this way in the future. If we consolidate this strength, I think we will all benefit. It's not necessary that Russia join NATO; the main thing is to have a mechanism of cooperation between Russia and NATO. This mechanism should give Russia equal footing not only in the decision-making process but also in discussing all those issues.

Recently, my old acquaintance and friend, Mr. Colin Powell, came to Moscow and said yes, we should give Russia a bigger role with NATO, but we shouldn't give it the right of veto. I told the secretary of state that he's moving too fast and that he should warn his allies not to give in. The president should know that if Russia will participate more in decision-making in NATO, then NATO would be guaranteed not to make mistakes in the future.

Putin has the same stance that we had in Malta during our meeting with Mr. Bush: We don't consider our countries to be enemies. But America does have to understand that just as you have interests-vital interests-that we understand, we have ours as well. If there's dialogue, if there's a mechanism, we'll discuss issues and find mutually beneficial solutions. If NATO is really ready for a partnership, it couldn't find a better partner than Russia.

Some people say that the United States and Russia are natural allies. Do you agree?

Yes. Objectively speaking, they should be allies. It's significant that today we can speak of a partnership between the two-that we could be allies. We see both the Russian and American sides working in this direction. So, you are correct.

But there's work to be done right now. If we don't consider seriously all Mr. Putin's proposals regarding domestic and foreign policy, we may miss another chance-because, you know, these proposals are really far-reaching.

Right now, we see new challenges, new problems. We were discussing the problems concerning the antiterrorist coalition-the war on the Taliban. Of course we're sure the United States will win this war. Following this victory, there will be euphoria, and we will forget about everything we've just gone through. We'll forget about the main challenges, about what we should really be doing.

You speak of the changes between Russia and the West. What are some of the changes you've seen in Russia itself? What were some of the challenges you faced as president?

I've often been invited to speak about the transition from totalitarianism to democracy. I think it's a very interesting subject. In our case, we were all learning to pronounce this term "private property," and it was almost like a second revolution. In each of my speeches, the members of the Politburo would look for words that in some way or another might be understood as critical of socialism. Those, they tried to replace. You must understand, by 1985, 90 percent of all the Soviet population was born under socialist rule after the October Revolution. They knew nothing of power, private property, and so on. So the main obstacle for Russian progress is our set of preconceptions. Our friends in the West wanted to think that because Gorbachev declared freedom, democracy, pluralism, glasnost, and so on that everything would change overnight.

But for now, without an efficient legal system which is truly able to enforce federal law, Russia will not be able to get back on track with democratic reforms.

How do you see your legacy? What will the history books say about your leadership of the Soviet Union?

There was a very interesting poll conducted by the All-Russian Poll Center. The results of this poll were wonderful. Everyone is for reform now, but they're arguing about whether we ever needed to start perestroika at all. Forty-two percent of the people think that we needed to start perestroika and 45 percent say we shouldn't have. This 45 percent who say that we shouldn't have are mainly senior citizens. So the most active, young, middle-class part of the population say that it was worthwhile.

Another peculiar feature was that even those respondents who said that it wasn't worth starting perestroika at all say that they are for pluralism-pluralism of ideas, pluralism of parties, pluralism of ideology, and religious confession. So even if they didn't think perestroika was a great idea, 60 to 80 percent say they're happy with the changes it brought. Even those who voted against perestroika in this poll-they say that those benefits are good. They support those benefits.

I'm especially encouraged by the fact that 80 to 82 percent of all those respondents, when asked what kind of Russia they'd like to see in the future, say that they want a free, democratic country. So I think I'll live to see that day. Mine is the usual fate of reformers: Either we get killed or our contribution is acknowledged only 50 years later.

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